Enforcement on businesses hiring non legal workers - gets the root cause. Without fixing that we are just playing wack a mole - people will still venture to the US since jobs exist and ICE is better than what ever crap they are coming from. Sure you may dissuade a few on the margins.
We are not fixing the root cause here even if you believe that immigration is bad for the country. It’s just a farce.
Companies that employ undocumented workers at scale have significant political power and deporting them en-masse would shock many industries, so this won’t happen.
The recent ICE shenanigans (which don’t get me wrong - are awful and badly executed) are just performative bullshit to please the voter base. In fact I’d argue they are intentionally executed badly to attract media attention so they can all say they are being tough on immigrants.
The deeper purpose is to create another state-sanctioned security force that is highly associated and politically enabled to deal with ‘undesirables’ outside of normal legal process. Then include whoever is needed under the label ‘undesirable’ — see other comment about a journalist being detained and questioned
I agree they are deadly serious, but to the parent commenter’s point, why wander the streets grabbing random people when they could go straight to the employers? They would have far more success targeting farms, construction sites, restaurant kitchens, etc.
The answer is the business owners are their constituents. They cannot afford to piss them off. If they lose their support the wheels will fall off this farcical performance.
I grew up in Florida, and I remember the sugar plantation “raids” they used to stage. They were a complete dog and pony show. They would announce them in advance so the plantations could hide most of their undocumented workers. Then they would round up just enough people for the photo op to prove they were being “tough on immigration.”
This is the same thing but on a grander and more dangerous scale.
Not quite. You had a bunch of workers at Tyson Chicken and Hormel Foods... At Tyson, underage and other undocumented workers were complaining about OSHA type stuff... next thing, there's a raid, 900 workers rounded up. Awkward moment as many of them spoke about how Tyson knew they were undocumented, and even handed over the written instructions provided to them on how to fill out paperwork and stay under the radar if they were.
"That is outside the scope of this investigation." Nothing ever happened.
At Hormel, complaining about all sorts of strange diseases and health conditions, possibly from inhaling aerosolized pig brain all day long? Oh, look, another raid.
"Won't someone rid me of these meddlesome workers?"
Just a theory but it seems highly plausible in both these cases that the companies and ICE colluded... stage a big photo op, get rid of problematic undocumented workers and oh, hey, wouldn't you know, no plans to investigate the company?
This is also your friendly reminder that visa overstays are a misdemeanor, but for an employer, assisting or knowingly hiring undocumented workers is a felony. Tough on crime, indeed.
Just because the grunts are dead serious doesn't mean the initiative is dead serious.
Even then, serious doesn't equal competent. They are still trying to deport Abrego Garcia. Spending millions in legal fees and transport to deport a single man is not pratical in the slightest.
Yes. The cruelty is the point. But that's of course not how they message it to their party.
Turns out cruelty is very expensive to maintain, though. And we certainly do not have the economy to keep accommodating the narrative as real citizens starve and lose jobs. Something's going to break.
The grunts are surely dead serious, but the bosses? Nah. If they were they'd be sending execs to prison. Anything less is pointless if you truly want to solve the problem.
They are serious now, but eventually Pournell’s Iron Law of Bureaucracy comes into play. Those who believe in the organization will take over from those who believe in the mission.
I think it’s more to scare immigrants with pleasing the base being icing on the cake. Stephen Miller is genuinely anti-immigrant. And anecdotally, it is working. Ask any flight attendant on an international route.
They want people to stop coming here, and the threat of being sent to some torture camp in the third world won’t deter a Haitian (whose daily life already meets that description) but it will deter people from less atrocious locations.
As an american, unless you're descendant from native americans, your ancestors are immigrants... I don't think it's worth pointing out. Most anti-immigration americans obviously aren't native americans.
pulling up the ladder behind you isn't a new concept
In my ancestor's defense, they didn't get much choice on emmigrating here. It'd be truly poetic if they tried to forcefully deport me because they can no longer use me as free labor on the fields.
As Vincent Gallo put it recently re: federal debt:
> The USA can tolerate one of these two things. A system of no welfare, no social services, no socialized medicine, food or housing with open borders. OR. No open boarders and highly limited, highly controlled, assimilating immigration policy. We cannot have both. When the USA had unlimited immigration over 100 years ago, we did not have Government supporting immigrants with welfare, medical services, housing, food etc.
I don't agree with Mr. Gallo here - I'm just sharing what a popular RW response is on this.
> I'm just sharing what a popular RW response is on this.
The policy in my red state is to spend public funds to treat unliked immigrants as harshly as possible, deny social welfare to citizens in need and prioritize gov resources for admin loyalists. At least it is now that courts are sufficiently captured.
Ive always been ashamed of all the genocidal massacres and forced relocations we did to the native americans but its not in any way accurate to compare establishing a colony to immigration; they came here to create a new society not to live amongst the existing civilizations. The way they did so at the expense of the civilizations already living here is abhorrent and shameful but its also in no way comparable to illegal immigration.
To the extent that it is comparable we would be absolutely justified in regulating immigration because the implication would be that the same thing that we did to the native americans is going to happen to us.
Its also not in any way reasonable to use the sins of the distant ancestor to delegitimize the nation's right to self-determination. Even if i accept your premise that my ancestors are comparable to immigrants i myself am not.
If the argument is that the nation has no rights to control its own borders because that would constitute some sort of "generational hypocrisy" that would also mean we have an obligation to accommodate slavery and genocide because our ancestors committed and benefitted from both of those.
Japan now has Kimi Onoda as Minister in Charge of Foreign Nationals and Immigration, and she's an immigrant herself, but her stance on immigrants is pretty hardline.
These people aren't anti-immigrant because of issues with immigration. They're anti-immigrant because they're hateful.
Rather than necessarily hateful (but not excluding that), whats happening here seems like brazen discursive manipulation for gain of political power at expense of a minority of the population.
Power in Japanese society is in large part built on calculating and self serving behaviour, without any real integral morals or values.. so politicians are seeing this stuff work overseas, and know they can get away with it too now.
Japan is truly impressive on taking an anti-immigration stance because they have numbers already that would be the dream of other countries pushing such perspectives. Off the top of my head there's 0.3% immigration.
It's truly saddening that such a stance can still work when it's likely the average citizen will not encounter an immigrant in their day to day life. a million immigrants is not threatening the jobs of 300m Japanese people.
That is mostly correct; immigrants account for about 3% of a total 123mil population. Your point does stand, but we are quite visible in Japan -- especially in Tokyo.
You are correct that we do not threaten jobs either. A large majority of the foreign population is working low/unskilled jobs. Generally, the native population is not wanting those jobs.
Those undesirable jobs can also be highly visible. Maybe the most frequent place Japanese notice visible minority immigrants is at convenience stores. So maybe it makes the population feel overrepresented. I see RWers post frequently about convenience store workers at least.
In Japan, the popular sentiment on immigration tends to be grouped together with tourists and temporary foreign workers as a single category: foreigners. This is perhaps understandable but unfortunate, because tourists often are very visible and tend to make a bad impression, as most haven't studied the language or learned the numerous behaviour expectations. Bad experiences with tourists creates hostility towards immigrants, who are few and mostly do work hard to integrate and behave well.
We had Dilan Yeşilgöz here in NL, minister of justice and leader of the liberal party VVD (right wing). She's an immigrant, born in Ankara, of Kurdish ancestry. She lied about immigrant subsequent travelers (which she is herself!) being a huge issue, and the government fell because of this issue. Turns out it is 400 people per year. I don't know what it is. Self-hate? Rules for thee, not for me?
Their reasoning for deploying the Texas National Guard to Chicago was because they claim a rebellion has started. They are consistently provoking citizens and lying about it. The courts have dismissed this due to the ridiculousness of it, but they continue to agitate. I don't think it's all for show, they're seeking a violent response so they can deploy the military.
It's also an enormous waste of money, which this admin loves to do. Billions to Israel, $40B to Argentina, $1T+ to bomb boats in the Gulf of Mexico, waste waste waste everywhere and send the bill to the average American, whose economic prospects haven't improved
>to allow to be used inefficiently or become dissipated
So, why are we bailing out Argentina, or bombing the South American gulfs? We can't be efficient if we can't even explain our reasoning. I've heard very little reasoning from the administration.
The best I heard was "we're hitting drug dealers". Even if I believed that, pending hundreds of billions to attack boats with drugs on them sounds horribly inefficient. Drugs are not an immediate threat to people and we have many methods through negotiation to simply limit/stop such imports.
I've heard zero justifications anywhere on the Argentina issue. It seems even many republicans do not like this approach.
How about spending on things that will have no benefit to the average US citizen, and in fact might just make things worse without solving the stated problem?
How about they spend that fucking money on funding food stamps or any of the other programs affected by the shutdown? If they can illegally move money elsewhere then they can do so for making sure people can eat. I'm going to need to start sending money out of my savings to support my parents because this administration is so inept that they're taking away benefits that our tax dollars have already paid for.
That performance may backfire, since some of the big supporters are agriculture businesses that rely on illegal immigrants to survive. Mass deportations of the type ICE seems to want will put a lot of those businesses out of business. I'm sure someone up in Washington thinks that poor Americans will step in to fill the gaps, but when it's been tried before those assumptions failed, badly.
I've seen some conspiracy theories that RFK, Jr, et al, want to start labor camps for autistic kids and just about anyone else his bunch can get tagged as defective or deficient or whatever, but I don't think that's going to work out like someone hopes it will.
>when it's been tried before those assumptions failed, badly.
Turns out Americans don't want to move out to rural areas to be paid minimum wage to do hard farm labor. Who knew?
That's the only real upside to this gig economy. Their competition isn't just flipping burgers, but anyone who has a car that can sign up to an app to make some quick cash.
I think you'll find that ICE goes to cities, not to the tiny farm towns where most of the field workers stay at. Farmers don't want ICE screwing up harvests, and the admin wants a more visual approach that comes with focusing on cities like LA and Chicago, not places like Seville CA.
A Reuters poll on the White House demolitions had a 63% approval for one question and a 40% approval rating for another question - from Republican voters.
As long as there exists a content economy on the right that does’t have to pay their dues to reality, you will not stop a political machine which is based upon fantasy.
The only thing that will cut through the noise is a recession, because that cannot be spun. Even then - that would just be a speed bump; eventually the recession will pass.
Your comment is not considering the possibility of ICE being used as a secret police force under the guise of enforcing immigration. There are strong indicators of this being the case.
Are you not an American? (Giving you the benefit of the doubt here)
In America, immigration enforcement is not a criminal issue but a civil issue. So the proper (as in, according to the laws and norms of the last many decades) the appropriate channels through which the enforcement of immigration is meant to be resolved is the courts. The current usage of ICE as a gestapo is literally illegal (it deprives "suspects" of due process and civil/human rights), in violation of Geneva conventions, and so on.
Furthermore even if we accept the blatantly immoral and illegal idea that federal agents should be able to break and enter into homes and kidnap, traumatize, and traffic people without the slightest pretense of legal justfiability (warrants etc), the fact is that they are not even attempting to choose people by any discernable metric other than their skin color. So it is objectively not about the enforcement of the law, it is about stochastic terrorism and ethnic cleansing, as that is the only thing their actions consistently demonstrate.
You're misunderstanding what I'm saying; ICE is an already-established organization meant for enforcing immigration law, but it's entirely possible that ICE is being/will be used as a secret police force to attack or dissuade political dissidents of the American right wing while claiming they are only enforcing immigration laws. Many American citizens have already been arrested and even deported by ICE, and the FBI has already been used to intimidate American citizens regarding their political speech. ICE is not supposed to be a secret police force, but it's certainly starting to become one.
Right instead they want the flow to continue so they can create a private prison system filled with immigrants. So private business men can profit. That's really it. It's not about fixing immigration.
>> Right instead they want the flow to continue so they can create a private prison system filled with immigrants.
How does this make sense when cities and states have openly declared themselves "sanctuary cities" for illegal immigrants?
How does this work when so many of the prisons are already overflowing? So much so, judges and prosecutors are not capable of sending more people to prisons and instead use diversion programs, down charging, or dismissing more serious crimes to charge these people with lesser crimes specifically in order to avoid jail time? What about states like Minnesota that continually deviate from sentencing guidelines and allow people convicted of crimes to spend the majority of their sentence out of prison? Minnesota isn't the only state that does this either, its just in the top five who do this.
The evidence would overwhelming appear to directly contradict this theory.
Dear Leader has already been talking about instituting some kind of program to formally permit cheap imported labor in "critical" industries like farming, construction, and landscaping. And why would the regime ever want to fix any root causes? Pournelle's iron law of bureaucracy applies to autocracies as well. The Republican party has been drumming up support on this bogeyman for decades. Remember when there was a bipartisan immigration bill up for vote before the election and Tramp insisted that it be killed? That's the fundamental dynamic right there - their cultists crave human suffering, not effective policy.
> Enforcement on businesses hiring non legal workers
How do you imagine such an enforcement effort would proceed? Paint me a picture please. Illustrate a hypothetical example, just one company. What would really happen is that you'd check these businesses, and all the paperwork's in order. Social security numbers for everyone (even if those aren't their own). Without probable cause though, wouldn't even get that far, would they? They'd need that for the search warrants... not that judges are very agreeable to signing those, not when they tend to help illegals flee out the back door of the courthouse so that ICE won't wait at the front door grab and deport them.
>We are not fixing the root cause here even if you believe that immigration is bad for the country.
Use the existing social security verification system, 5x fines median salary per year of suspected employment. Assume the worker has only worked for one employer for their entire time in the US or since 18 if there is no other verifiable evidence of employment.
It would fix the "problem" of all American workers who fear their job can be taken away by someone who doesn't speak the language, possibly has little education, because a large company thinks it's more profitable to hire them illegally. Nobody actually cares if someone hires their cousin at the family owned restaurant that sends money back home to his family.
But the goal actually is to have a section of society scared to report employer abuses and willing to work below minimum wage. The farmers in Iowa want the cruelty in Chicago. There was a tiny bit of deportation raids in red states at the beginning because of racism, but that was shut down quick.
I can't understand it. It was a huge story that hyundais entire workforce of 500 were illegals, but i have heard nothing about hyundai facing any consequences for blantantly disregarding the law. That also goes for US companies to be clear, but that was jst the first case that opened my eyes.
Because Hyundai was not hiring 500 illegals, that is completely false. Everyone who got deported is allowed to return under the same visas they were on before. They were not allowed to stay without being ejected first because it would have made the current admin and the frozen water gang look really bad at a time where they're trying to establish a reputation as a fair and just law enforcement agency carrying out the mandate of the will of the people. If anything, the shot callers at the frozen water gang should have faced consequences but they didn't and they won't.
> South Korean companies have been mostly relying on short-term visas or a visa waiver program called the Electronic System for Travel Authorization, or ESTA, to send workers needed to launch manufacturing sites and handle other setup tasks, a practice that had been largely tolerated for years.
It sounds to me like they had relied on a grey area. The most obvious conclusion is that pressure from the top down in ICE caused their agents to "hunt around" and look for "big arrests." When political pressure from South Korea mounted they had to reverse themselves.
It's the USA (collectively) that's in the wrong here. You can't both beg a Korean company to build and start up a battery factory in your country and not provide any mechanism for the people needed to make that happen to be present in your country.
>> Because Hyundai was not hiring 500 illegals, that is completely false.
The entire article you posted just referenced short term visas after the raid and said nothing other than the nationals who were arrested were flown home. The article spent less than a sentence with what OP posted:
The announcement came weeks after South Korea flew home more than 300 of its nationals who had been detained in a massive immigration raid at a battery factory being built on Hyundai’s sprawling auto plant campus near Savannah, Georgia.
From September when the raid happened:
"This was not an immigration operation where agents went into the premises, rounded up folks and put them on buses," Steve Schrank, the special agent in charge of Homeland Security Investigations in Atlanta, said at a news conference on Friday.
"This has been a multi-month criminal investigation where we have developed evidence, conducted interviews gathered documents and presented that evidence... in order to obtain a judicial search warrant," Schrank added.
He said it was "the largest single-site enforcement operation in the history of homeland security investigations".
"These [workers] are people that came through with Biden. They came through illegally."
Some 475 people who were in the country illegally or working unlawfully were detained in the operation, immigration officials said.
It seems like many people here are confusing the rights of citizens vs the rights of guests. When you are not a citizen of a country you are a guest and it is a privilege, not a right, to be in a country you are not a citizen of. Other countries have been known to ban people for political speech. There are many examples of other countries, such as the UK, doing this.
Social media is a double edge sword because what you say on it is stays forever in some archive and can have consequences. If the US government starts to use this against citizens of the US that is a different issue. But in general, if you want to enjoy to privilege of being able to travel and/or immigrate to other countries and minimize your chance of having issues, it is best to be cautious about what you post on social media and online.
Rights aren't a citizens-or-guests thing, they're a human thing. Would (for example) homicide become right or wrong depending on an entry in a database somewhere? It's absurd to suggest that it's legal to pickpocket tourists.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
“States’ rights” was by and large an excuse for states to marginalize and oppress their minorities without interference from the Federal Government. (The Federal Government is usually the last line of defense a minority has against the state’s oppression.)
There’s a book that makes an incredibly compelling case called Freedom’s Dominion, highly recommended.
Now when I hear “states’ rights” I complete the thought with, “…to do bad things to people we don’t really like”
You might be overthinking it. Republicans support "states rights" only for red states and when they don't have control of all three branches of the federal government.
It was never about state rights. It’s always been about power and control. Trump is the true face of the Republican
party that’s finally come out. He’s not implementing the policies they want, but they wanted someone like him.
The ultimate goal of Christian nationalists (a large part of the Republican Party) is to turn the United States into a single-party theocracy and implement their version of Sharira law. They probably don’t fully realize this is what they’re doing.
A bit of history: "States' Rights" advocates specifically were advocating "States' rights to enforce chattel slavery". The Fugitive Slave Act is a wild usurpation of States' Rights, but the slavers (who have become the modern Repulican party) didn't mind.
"They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past."
Usually someone they know. Well. Family, friends of family, "trustworthy" public figure. Councilors and priests remain ignored despite systematic abuse.
Both parties are globalist TBH. I used to vote Repub but got out 15 years ago, disillusioned by the unapologetic hypocrisy. Would love to see a God-fearing minarchist or libertarian succeed but I know that’s not realistic.
Isn’t the problem that Trump is now doing what he promised? He campaigned on tariffs and deportations (and a decade ago, building a White House ballroom).
when what republicans say align with what they do, I might pay more attention to what they say. so far listening to any of these republicans talk is like listening to an abusive gaslighter on ketamine.
Why would someone who has not committed a crime and is not accused of a crime need a court case?
"Due process" isn't what you think it is. The due process for someone suspected of being an illegal immigrant is checking to see whether they are an illegal immigrant, and then sending them home. That's the only process "due".
When someone is allegedly an il_legal_ immigrant, they are present but allegedly violating immigration _laws_.
That is to say, such a person has been accused of a crime.
Due process in the constitution guarantees that individuals (including non-citizens facing deportation) have the opportunity to defend themselves in court against such accusations.
In the world we could assess this completely and with perfect accuracy, you're spot on that that'd be all that we need!
In the current world, though, due process exists because there are sometimes messy and fuzzy details that need evaluation. For instance, the date of an immigration court hearing might be delayed, or an applicant may be granted an extension. An immigrant may have received incorrect information and missed the proper steps through no fault of their own. If immigration enforcement skips due process but is working on even slightly outdated information, we're trashing the rights of people who may be following the process properly.
In the cases where an immigrant is clearly here illegally and there are no extenuating circumstances, deportation is already the thing that the current due-process does.
> Why would someone who has not committed a crime and is not accused of a crime need a court case?
Criminal court is only one type of use-case for the legal system, there are loads of other ones. The phrase "Civil court" refers to scenarios where no one has committed a crime and no one is accused of a crime, and these represent the majority of court cases.
What do you think the process to check whether someone is an illegal immigrant is? It needs to leave a paper trail, and provide someone the opportunity to prove that they're a citizen or here legally.
That doesn't work in all cases. ESTA visa for example you give up the rights to due process if you overstay on that visa as part of the agreement to the visa.
Doesn't justify anything that ICE are currently doing though.
While you are correct in stating that an article III court generally is not required, the due process for immigrants, even those not present legally, is more complicated than just "check paperwork for legal status, act immediately". While in some cases expedited removal bypass the normal process, if a deportation is contested, due process still generally entails access to a hearing before an immigration judge (article II judge).
They'd quickly cancel the contract with any supplier that doesn't give them the carte blanche and obfuscation of responsibility they want.
Just like other ML and big data LEO projects in the past, assume the use of AI is to greenlight what they already want to do and would like a fig leaf of justification for from a computer.
It is not surprising nor particularly novel. But consider the people upvoting this are supporting a sensationalistic and dishonest Jacobin article right now. Of course it doesn't make sense.
If we organized a content storm campaign we could make this effort moot. Time to start building a portfolio of dummy accounts to muddy the water. Remember... TAILS and fresh IP's for each account, ideally nodes you can get back on with ease. Use a public network if possible.
Bonus: You can also use these accounts to undermine the Online Safety Act at the same time!
Now we begin to see the true reason for all the AI push.
>You had to live – did live, from habit that became instinct – in the assumption that every sound you made was overheard, and, except in darkness, every moment scrutinized.
Let me play a devil's advocate. Are you (and Orwell) unhappy that people breaking the law get punished? Even if you merely cross the road in the wrong place, you deserve a punishment to the maximum extent specified by the law, don't you? It doesn't matter if you break the law in the darkness or not.
> Even if you merely cross the road in the wrong place, you deserve a punishment to the maximum extent specified by the law, don't you?
It depends _why_ you did it. This is the precise reason why we have courts and juries. Jury nullification exists for a reason. Laws are not meant to be a rote set of rules and punishments to dole out mechanically.
> $5.7 million contract for AI-driven social media surveillance
Yeah, that would just about cover the cost of a pizza party in the AI world. You also can look at "Zignal Labs". The website looks like 100% snakeoil.
I have no doubt that ICE would love to have some AI-based software to detect illegal immigrants, but I doubt it's more effective than just regular datamining.
It doesn't need to be effective, it needs to be a computerized excuse to go after more people. Whenever computers are used to target people, the output is always given far too much weight. Recently we had guns drawn on a child because a computer vision algorithm classified his doritos as a gun with a low confidence score, with explicit advice to only investigate further and not assume correctness. But that child still had multiple guns trained on them.
Take that, apply it to here, and it's clear that effectiveness would actually be counterproductive.
So far 2 million illegal immigrants have left the US. Mass surveillance and enforcement technology is dismal to think about, though NSA and google have been doing it for years. I'm watching from my perspective in the UK where there is growing fury over the gross incompetence, negligence and mishandling of a mass immigration crisis which is so stupid it beggars belief. The various law enforcement agencies in the us don't cooperate that closely, so there's less scope for this to be abused against american citizens unlike in the UK.
Are the lives of immigrants better? Are we importing citizens or slaves? Why are we not interested in improving conditions in their home country? Shouldn't we focus on that first?
I reject that. There is a steadily worsening crisis, even the current labour government have acknowledged that pledging to take lots of action against it, both now and during the election campaign. Specifically small boat crossings, of which more then 43,000 have already arrived this year. There is not a single politician in this country who doesn't admit that there is a serious problem.
Anyone concerned about that outcome probably shouldn't have allowed their ruler to declare herself Empress of India, creating a nation with a 10-to-1 ratio of "people living on a subcontinent" vs. "people living on an island." Along with many, many other decisions made by the UK in the past 400-odd-years.
Point is, it's a bit late to complain about the "average Brit" not looking like a Viking took a Celtic bride anymore, yeah? Not after putting so much effort into being an empire that spot-welded as many different people under its flag as it possibly could for awhile?
Personally, I do not care. I'm not in the business of telling other countries how to run their affairs, generally.
I am, however, in the business of calling out hypocrisy when a new age of isolationists ignore their own history, because that historically ends poorly.
Probably the case-study of how it caused America to collapse into a civil war in the next year or so, since the only way the Executive can continue its policy is by overtly ignoring rule of law and Americans appear to be growing weary of that from their Executive.
That'll likely ice the ambitions of the ultra-nationalists in other countries historically close to America for a generation, much like Germany trying its eugenics experiment iced the previously-quite-vocal eugenicists in the US for about a generation.
During The last American civil war, the North was the economic poeerhouse, and the slave states were relatively poor. This no doubt impacted the outcome.
Today the blue states are the economic powerhouse, and the red states are relatively poor. Should it come to it, I would expect the wealthy states to win.
I'm actually not. I am assuming other countries would watch that war break out and consider how excited they are about doing that on their own soil. That kind of civil war wrecks the economy of a developed nation, and power brokers in most developed nations are a lot more interested in protecting their wealth than exclusive nationalist ideals.
Practically, I strongly suspect a US that fell to civil war in this current climate would result in the country fragmenting, not entirely unlike the premise of the old "Cyberpunk 2020" fictional setting. DC would, for example, find it remarkably challenging to hold a California that blatantly broke off from it, especially if the federal military resources of that California defected. Especially if it caught allies in neighboring states upon that occurrence.
The end result would be no real "winners;" it'd be the implosion of the United States of America as a national unit into something more approximating some agglomeration of the pieces outlined in https://www.twincities.com/2013/11/16/which-of-this-writers-....
But even if the end result were (not unlike the last American civil war) a reunification with new laws... The US lost about 2 solid years of its GDP to war. That's not good for business and would encourage those with resources to lose to expend them stifling their own domestic "purity" nationalists.
Different populists have different ideal numbers for how many people they want to purge. Some want 10 million, some want 20-50 million going decades back and reversing whatever laws allowed the "wrong kind" of even legal immigrants to come here in the first place.
I think more governments around the world are catching on to the idea that your majority population can excuse a large amount of economic mismanagement and bad geopolitical strategy if you blame foreigners who arrived after your decline started.
If a satisfactory amount of foreigners are removed, the technology will still be there and the defense contractors will still need contracts. If there are no viable foreign adversaries at that point, then another domestic target will be needed.
Is mass immigration really a crisis? Like people are upset here in the US too but I don't even know why. There's a lot of immigrants in my state but they're not upsetting me.
Not even a little bit. No one is taking jobs away from citizens or legal immigrants (locals don't want those jobs, either at all, or at the wages offered), rampant "migrant crime" is a myth created and perpetuated by the right (immigrants commit crime at lower rates than citizens), and to top it off, the American economy depends on many of these migrant workers in order to function (often in exploitative ways; explicitly allowing and supporting this type of migration would make things safer for everyone).
It's othering and racism, plain and simple.
I'm not saying we should just open the floodgates and let anyone and everyone in, and I'm not saying we shouldn't deport non-citizens who commit violent crime, but the "crisis" is entirely manufactured.
It sure is, the US government has been underfunding the judicial body responsible for adjudicating asylum claims for years and years. As a result there are indeed people here in status limbo.
Wether or not they should be granted some kind of residency is kind of irrelevant, politicians are happy for this to be a problem they can use.
Even now, they aren’t increasing the rate of process, they’re just blowing the cash on mass surveillance.
Employed privilege. Lots of folks would like to work in construction but haven’t been able to for a while. I know several that retired early in poverty.
I would appreciate a job in construction or at a restaurant for example. Teenagers would benefit from such jobs as well. Not available.
And yet multiple studies have shown that when jobs are offered to Americans that involve labor (farm, construction, food industry), at those wages, then there are generally few to near zero applicants.
There are other reasonings (prevailing wage, location, etc.), but likewise, your "absolute assertion" that undocumented workers have been taking job opportunities from you is also not entirely ... absolute.
Absolutely not. They are an essential part of modern American life, and anyone against it either doesn't understand that, or does it for racist reasons.
What has changed is the “messaging” around the topic. This is very common with the Trump administration. When all is said and done, when exceptions are made/bought, and the courts and others get involved, it ends up not being much of a needle move. BUT, what is different every time is the messaging. And I have come to believe, that is what the actual goal is to some degree. The real goal is to send a message to people who are immigrants OR (and this is important) look like immigrants. It’s a message of “remember your place” and “be grateful you get to be here”. It’s the same type of tactics that gets sent to Asian communities, black communities, women, etc.
I am white. I am a male. I am 55. I oscillate between despondently sad and disgusted.
The older you are, the more likely you’ll see more people and say “get off my lawn” when really, you were busy hanging plates when the rest of the world was having babies…
That’s really what happened. The population doubled in 15 years and people moved (people always move). It’s just more people now. So naturally you’ll see more immigrants.
>There's a lot of immigrants in my state but they're not upsetting me.
You might not think that, but have you ever complained about housing prices? That food at the grocery store costs more than it did a few years ago? The price of consumer goods in general?
Well, you're not buying those things. You're bidding on them. And the more people there are, here, the higher those prices will be bid upwards.
High housing prices is a complex mix of underbuilding due to zoning laws, companies buying up housing stock to rent, and (a few years ago) very low interest rates. One thing that is _not_ a factor is immigrants, because they are at the bottom of the social pile and usually can't get mortgages to buy houses.
> That food at the grocery store costs more than it did a few years ago?
> the more people there are, here, the higher those prices will be bid upwards
Who do you think is picking most of that food? And if the wages for those jobs went up to an American living wage, what do you think would happen to the price of food even with a bit lower demand?
I know it's all too easy and comforting to throw out knee-jerk comments cheerleading for government power, but at least try applying some basic analysis to what you write.
Roughly half the population responds to unfamiliar people and ideas with curiosity, and the other half with fear. The latter half are easily manipulated into nurturing the fear. Everything rolls up to this.
What's your definition of "unfamiliar"? I just want people vetted before they're allowed into my house to live along-side my family? Is that unreasonable?
The people I work with believe the government, the current administration is funding immigrants. Providing them with handlers who are paid to assist them, open up credit cards in their own names on behalf of non-citizens who otherwise couldn't.
Multiple of them believe this. One mentioned it, after she left I turned to my other coworker to say "that was some crazy stuff she was saying" only to be met with, "Hey, it's happening. A lot of federal money goes missing and this is exactly where it's going."
It's a complete disconnect from reality that's malleable to any form desired.
When ICE raided Tyson Chicken (a few years ago), multiple workers provided documentation from Tyson telling them how to stay under the radar and how to fill out paperwork if they were undocumented. There's definitely a very large effort in undocumented labor... and little interest in rocking the boat of those employers.
> So far 2 million illegal immigrants have left the US.
The Trump administration loves gaudy numbers like this. Common sense tells you that's a lot of movement in too short of time. Until they release evidence of these numbers, please do not spread this misinformation.
Indeed, it's a complete lie and fabrication, and those who repeat it are bearing false witness. Take the report it came from, click on any "supporting" link, such as:
> A recent study from the United Nations reported that President Trump’s immigration policies led to a 97% reduction in illegal aliens heading northbound to the U.S. from Central America.
And you find that the document they link does not support their assertion, and in face the "97%" refers to:
> The migrants who returned during the period were primarily Venezuelan nationals, accounting for 97% of the documented southward flow, with most heading to neighboring Colombia.
It's comically bad deception, only people who continuously traffic in lies all day long would even publish something like this.
Like, say we assume it's true: There are 340 million people in the US. That's less than 1% of the current population leaving. I really doubt anybody would notice much of a difference.
It's more affluent than most other states. Most red states take more federal money than they give back. Maybe you should actually look at numbers rather than relying on memes and narratives.
Somewhat relevant: ICE detains British journalist after criticism of Israel on US tour
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/oct/26/ice-detains-...
Somewhat relevant: "Don't pity them, they don't want your pity. Celebrate the victory.
"How many of you felt it in your hearts when you got the news that it happened? How many of you felt the Euphoria? Allah Akbar!"
-Sami Hamad discussing Oct7.
Enforcement on businesses hiring non legal workers - gets the root cause. Without fixing that we are just playing wack a mole - people will still venture to the US since jobs exist and ICE is better than what ever crap they are coming from. Sure you may dissuade a few on the margins.
We are not fixing the root cause here even if you believe that immigration is bad for the country. It’s just a farce.
Companies that employ undocumented workers at scale have significant political power and deporting them en-masse would shock many industries, so this won’t happen.
The recent ICE shenanigans (which don’t get me wrong - are awful and badly executed) are just performative bullshit to please the voter base. In fact I’d argue they are intentionally executed badly to attract media attention so they can all say they are being tough on immigrants.
The deeper purpose is to create another state-sanctioned security force that is highly associated and politically enabled to deal with ‘undesirables’ outside of normal legal process. Then include whoever is needed under the label ‘undesirable’ — see other comment about a journalist being detained and questioned
The theatre is also there for the immigrants (or whatever undesirable that's being targeted).
It has a chilling effect on what people say and do.
You'll notice the same effect in other states that have armed people who turn up unexpectedly to make people disappear.
You're telling yourself what you want to hear. I guarantee you these guys are dead serious, and they've recently gotten a huge flush of cash.
I agree they are deadly serious, but to the parent commenter’s point, why wander the streets grabbing random people when they could go straight to the employers? They would have far more success targeting farms, construction sites, restaurant kitchens, etc.
The answer is the business owners are their constituents. They cannot afford to piss them off. If they lose their support the wheels will fall off this farcical performance.
I grew up in Florida, and I remember the sugar plantation “raids” they used to stage. They were a complete dog and pony show. They would announce them in advance so the plantations could hide most of their undocumented workers. Then they would round up just enough people for the photo op to prove they were being “tough on immigration.”
This is the same thing but on a grander and more dangerous scale.
The employers are more often white and/or more politically aligned.
Not quite. You had a bunch of workers at Tyson Chicken and Hormel Foods... At Tyson, underage and other undocumented workers were complaining about OSHA type stuff... next thing, there's a raid, 900 workers rounded up. Awkward moment as many of them spoke about how Tyson knew they were undocumented, and even handed over the written instructions provided to them on how to fill out paperwork and stay under the radar if they were.
"That is outside the scope of this investigation." Nothing ever happened.
At Hormel, complaining about all sorts of strange diseases and health conditions, possibly from inhaling aerosolized pig brain all day long? Oh, look, another raid.
"Won't someone rid me of these meddlesome workers?"
Just a theory but it seems highly plausible in both these cases that the companies and ICE colluded... stage a big photo op, get rid of problematic undocumented workers and oh, hey, wouldn't you know, no plans to investigate the company?
This is also your friendly reminder that visa overstays are a misdemeanor, but for an employer, assisting or knowingly hiring undocumented workers is a felony. Tough on crime, indeed.
They are showing up at workplaces and getting people.
Here's one that happened near me last month: https://cnycentral.com/news/local/breakdown-ice-detains-work... - and there are more happening in other places.
> I guarantee you these guys are dead serious
Just because the grunts are dead serious doesn't mean the initiative is dead serious.
Even then, serious doesn't equal competent. They are still trying to deport Abrego Garcia. Spending millions in legal fees and transport to deport a single man is not pratical in the slightest.
It's not about practically, it's about enforcing will and punishing enemies, especially self-created ones.
Yes. The cruelty is the point. But that's of course not how they message it to their party.
Turns out cruelty is very expensive to maintain, though. And we certainly do not have the economy to keep accommodating the narrative as real citizens starve and lose jobs. Something's going to break.
The grunts are surely dead serious, but the bosses? Nah. If they were they'd be sending execs to prison. Anything less is pointless if you truly want to solve the problem.
You're assuming that the thing they're "serious" about is ending illegal immigration.
The bosses are serious about making the US an authoritarian ethno state.
"truly solve the problem" ???
I believe Stephen Miller want a final solution to the immigration problem.
They are serious now, but eventually Pournell’s Iron Law of Bureaucracy comes into play. Those who believe in the organization will take over from those who believe in the mission.
I think it’s more to scare immigrants with pleasing the base being icing on the cake. Stephen Miller is genuinely anti-immigrant. And anecdotally, it is working. Ask any flight attendant on an international route.
They want people to stop coming here, and the threat of being sent to some torture camp in the third world won’t deter a Haitian (whose daily life already meets that description) but it will deter people from less atrocious locations.
> Stephen Miller is genuinely anti-immigrant.
I don't know much about him but aren't his grand parents Belarusians who came over to the US?
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/08/13/stephen-m...
As an american, unless you're descendant from native americans, your ancestors are immigrants... I don't think it's worth pointing out. Most anti-immigration americans obviously aren't native americans.
pulling up the ladder behind you isn't a new concept
In my ancestor's defense, they didn't get much choice on emmigrating here. It'd be truly poetic if they tried to forcefully deport me because they can no longer use me as free labor on the fields.
As Vincent Gallo put it recently re: federal debt:
> The USA can tolerate one of these two things. A system of no welfare, no social services, no socialized medicine, food or housing with open borders. OR. No open boarders and highly limited, highly controlled, assimilating immigration policy. We cannot have both. When the USA had unlimited immigration over 100 years ago, we did not have Government supporting immigrants with welfare, medical services, housing, food etc.
I don't agree with Mr. Gallo here - I'm just sharing what a popular RW response is on this.
> I'm just sharing what a popular RW response is on this.
The policy in my red state is to spend public funds to treat unliked immigrants as harshly as possible, deny social welfare to citizens in need and prioritize gov resources for admin loyalists. At least it is now that courts are sufficiently captured.
Ive always been ashamed of all the genocidal massacres and forced relocations we did to the native americans but its not in any way accurate to compare establishing a colony to immigration; they came here to create a new society not to live amongst the existing civilizations. The way they did so at the expense of the civilizations already living here is abhorrent and shameful but its also in no way comparable to illegal immigration.
To the extent that it is comparable we would be absolutely justified in regulating immigration because the implication would be that the same thing that we did to the native americans is going to happen to us.
Its also not in any way reasonable to use the sins of the distant ancestor to delegitimize the nation's right to self-determination. Even if i accept your premise that my ancestors are comparable to immigrants i myself am not. If the argument is that the nation has no rights to control its own borders because that would constitute some sort of "generational hypocrisy" that would also mean we have an obligation to accommodate slavery and genocide because our ancestors committed and benefitted from both of those.
>As an american, unless you're descendant from native americans, your ancestors are immigrants.
How'd that work out for those native americans again? Maybe I'm a little reluctant to let things play out the way it did for them.
Japan now has Kimi Onoda as Minister in Charge of Foreign Nationals and Immigration, and she's an immigrant herself, but her stance on immigrants is pretty hardline.
These people aren't anti-immigrant because of issues with immigration. They're anti-immigrant because they're hateful.
Rather than necessarily hateful (but not excluding that), whats happening here seems like brazen discursive manipulation for gain of political power at expense of a minority of the population. Power in Japanese society is in large part built on calculating and self serving behaviour, without any real integral morals or values.. so politicians are seeing this stuff work overseas, and know they can get away with it too now.
Japan is truly impressive on taking an anti-immigration stance because they have numbers already that would be the dream of other countries pushing such perspectives. Off the top of my head there's 0.3% immigration.
It's truly saddening that such a stance can still work when it's likely the average citizen will not encounter an immigrant in their day to day life. a million immigrants is not threatening the jobs of 300m Japanese people.
That is mostly correct; immigrants account for about 3% of a total 123mil population. Your point does stand, but we are quite visible in Japan -- especially in Tokyo.
You are correct that we do not threaten jobs either. A large majority of the foreign population is working low/unskilled jobs. Generally, the native population is not wanting those jobs.
Those undesirable jobs can also be highly visible. Maybe the most frequent place Japanese notice visible minority immigrants is at convenience stores. So maybe it makes the population feel overrepresented. I see RWers post frequently about convenience store workers at least.
In Japan, the popular sentiment on immigration tends to be grouped together with tourists and temporary foreign workers as a single category: foreigners. This is perhaps understandable but unfortunate, because tourists often are very visible and tend to make a bad impression, as most haven't studied the language or learned the numerous behaviour expectations. Bad experiences with tourists creates hostility towards immigrants, who are few and mostly do work hard to integrate and behave well.
> and she's an immigrant herself
Not really. Her mother is Japanese and they moved back when she was one year old.
We had Dilan Yeşilgöz here in NL, minister of justice and leader of the liberal party VVD (right wing). She's an immigrant, born in Ankara, of Kurdish ancestry. She lied about immigrant subsequent travelers (which she is herself!) being a huge issue, and the government fell because of this issue. Turns out it is 400 people per year. I don't know what it is. Self-hate? Rules for thee, not for me?
Hey now, we don't need no fancy logic 'round here. /s
Their reasoning for deploying the Texas National Guard to Chicago was because they claim a rebellion has started. They are consistently provoking citizens and lying about it. The courts have dismissed this due to the ridiculousness of it, but they continue to agitate. I don't think it's all for show, they're seeking a violent response so they can deploy the military.
Note that the courts have split on the deployment of national guard troops so the issue is destined for the Supreme Court.
It's also an enormous waste of money, which this admin loves to do. Billions to Israel, $40B to Argentina, $1T+ to bomb boats in the Gulf of Mexico, waste waste waste everywhere and send the bill to the average American, whose economic prospects haven't improved
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> I dare you to define what you mean by waste.
I'll just go with the dictionary:
>to allow to be used inefficiently or become dissipated
So, why are we bailing out Argentina, or bombing the South American gulfs? We can't be efficient if we can't even explain our reasoning. I've heard very little reasoning from the administration.
The best I heard was "we're hitting drug dealers". Even if I believed that, pending hundreds of billions to attack boats with drugs on them sounds horribly inefficient. Drugs are not an immediate threat to people and we have many methods through negotiation to simply limit/stop such imports.
I've heard zero justifications anywhere on the Argentina issue. It seems even many republicans do not like this approach.
How about spending on things that will have no benefit to the average US citizen, and in fact might just make things worse without solving the stated problem?
How about "stuff that is internally logically inconsistent"?
How about they spend that fucking money on funding food stamps or any of the other programs affected by the shutdown? If they can illegally move money elsewhere then they can do so for making sure people can eat. I'm going to need to start sending money out of my savings to support my parents because this administration is so inept that they're taking away benefits that our tax dollars have already paid for.
normalize adversarial face paint, make up, and apparel.
Silver linings…
That performance may backfire, since some of the big supporters are agriculture businesses that rely on illegal immigrants to survive. Mass deportations of the type ICE seems to want will put a lot of those businesses out of business. I'm sure someone up in Washington thinks that poor Americans will step in to fill the gaps, but when it's been tried before those assumptions failed, badly.
I've seen some conspiracy theories that RFK, Jr, et al, want to start labor camps for autistic kids and just about anyone else his bunch can get tagged as defective or deficient or whatever, but I don't think that's going to work out like someone hopes it will.
>when it's been tried before those assumptions failed, badly.
Turns out Americans don't want to move out to rural areas to be paid minimum wage to do hard farm labor. Who knew?
That's the only real upside to this gig economy. Their competition isn't just flipping burgers, but anyone who has a car that can sign up to an app to make some quick cash.
I think you'll find that ICE goes to cities, not to the tiny farm towns where most of the field workers stay at. Farmers don't want ICE screwing up harvests, and the admin wants a more visual approach that comes with focusing on cities like LA and Chicago, not places like Seville CA.
Nothing will backfire.
A Reuters poll on the White House demolitions had a 63% approval for one question and a 40% approval rating for another question - from Republican voters.
As long as there exists a content economy on the right that does’t have to pay their dues to reality, you will not stop a political machine which is based upon fantasy.
The only thing that will cut through the noise is a recession, because that cannot be spun. Even then - that would just be a speed bump; eventually the recession will pass.
Short term pain for long term gain. Locker room economics.
Your comment is not considering the possibility of ICE being used as a secret police force under the guise of enforcing immigration. There are strong indicators of this being the case.
It's not even a question, that is objectively and observably what is happening, and they even admit it.
>> a secret police force under the guise of enforcing immigration.
Isn't that role of ICE? To police and enforce immigration? Doesn't ICE stand for "Immigration & Customs Enforcement"?
What am I missing here?
There is no need for a "secret police" when that is the intended, declared and funded function of their organization.
Are you not an American? (Giving you the benefit of the doubt here)
In America, immigration enforcement is not a criminal issue but a civil issue. So the proper (as in, according to the laws and norms of the last many decades) the appropriate channels through which the enforcement of immigration is meant to be resolved is the courts. The current usage of ICE as a gestapo is literally illegal (it deprives "suspects" of due process and civil/human rights), in violation of Geneva conventions, and so on.
Furthermore even if we accept the blatantly immoral and illegal idea that federal agents should be able to break and enter into homes and kidnap, traumatize, and traffic people without the slightest pretense of legal justfiability (warrants etc), the fact is that they are not even attempting to choose people by any discernable metric other than their skin color. So it is objectively not about the enforcement of the law, it is about stochastic terrorism and ethnic cleansing, as that is the only thing their actions consistently demonstrate.
You're misunderstanding what I'm saying; ICE is an already-established organization meant for enforcing immigration law, but it's entirely possible that ICE is being/will be used as a secret police force to attack or dissuade political dissidents of the American right wing while claiming they are only enforcing immigration laws. Many American citizens have already been arrested and even deported by ICE, and the FBI has already been used to intimidate American citizens regarding their political speech. ICE is not supposed to be a secret police force, but it's certainly starting to become one.
Right instead they want the flow to continue so they can create a private prison system filled with immigrants. So private business men can profit. That's really it. It's not about fixing immigration.
>> Right instead they want the flow to continue so they can create a private prison system filled with immigrants.
How does this make sense when cities and states have openly declared themselves "sanctuary cities" for illegal immigrants?
How does this work when so many of the prisons are already overflowing? So much so, judges and prosecutors are not capable of sending more people to prisons and instead use diversion programs, down charging, or dismissing more serious crimes to charge these people with lesser crimes specifically in order to avoid jail time? What about states like Minnesota that continually deviate from sentencing guidelines and allow people convicted of crimes to spend the majority of their sentence out of prison? Minnesota isn't the only state that does this either, its just in the top five who do this.
The evidence would overwhelming appear to directly contradict this theory.
You're ignoring some pretty crucial evidence about this administration, which is that:
A) They're building more prisons specifically to fill with immigrants
B) Sentencing trends don't really affect immigrants who are denied due process.
Dear Leader has already been talking about instituting some kind of program to formally permit cheap imported labor in "critical" industries like farming, construction, and landscaping. And why would the regime ever want to fix any root causes? Pournelle's iron law of bureaucracy applies to autocracies as well. The Republican party has been drumming up support on this bogeyman for decades. Remember when there was a bipartisan immigration bill up for vote before the election and Tramp insisted that it be killed? That's the fundamental dynamic right there - their cultists crave human suffering, not effective policy.
> Enforcement on businesses hiring non legal workers
How do you imagine such an enforcement effort would proceed? Paint me a picture please. Illustrate a hypothetical example, just one company. What would really happen is that you'd check these businesses, and all the paperwork's in order. Social security numbers for everyone (even if those aren't their own). Without probable cause though, wouldn't even get that far, would they? They'd need that for the search warrants... not that judges are very agreeable to signing those, not when they tend to help illegals flee out the back door of the courthouse so that ICE won't wait at the front door grab and deport them.
>We are not fixing the root cause here even if you believe that immigration is bad for the country.
Sometimes all you can do is treat the symptoms.
Use the existing social security verification system, 5x fines median salary per year of suspected employment. Assume the worker has only worked for one employer for their entire time in the US or since 18 if there is no other verifiable evidence of employment.
It would fix the "problem" of all American workers who fear their job can be taken away by someone who doesn't speak the language, possibly has little education, because a large company thinks it's more profitable to hire them illegally. Nobody actually cares if someone hires their cousin at the family owned restaurant that sends money back home to his family.
But the goal actually is to have a section of society scared to report employer abuses and willing to work below minimum wage. The farmers in Iowa want the cruelty in Chicago. There was a tiny bit of deportation raids in red states at the beginning because of racism, but that was shut down quick.
Are we really deporting people or just putting them to work in labor camps as has been reported.
I can't understand it. It was a huge story that hyundais entire workforce of 500 were illegals, but i have heard nothing about hyundai facing any consequences for blantantly disregarding the law. That also goes for US companies to be clear, but that was jst the first case that opened my eyes.
Because Hyundai was not hiring 500 illegals, that is completely false. Everyone who got deported is allowed to return under the same visas they were on before. They were not allowed to stay without being ejected first because it would have made the current admin and the frozen water gang look really bad at a time where they're trying to establish a reputation as a fair and just law enforcement agency carrying out the mandate of the will of the people. If anything, the shot callers at the frozen water gang should have faced consequences but they didn't and they won't.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/u-s-will-allow-south-kor...
It's not "completely false."
> South Korean companies have been mostly relying on short-term visas or a visa waiver program called the Electronic System for Travel Authorization, or ESTA, to send workers needed to launch manufacturing sites and handle other setup tasks, a practice that had been largely tolerated for years.
It sounds to me like they had relied on a grey area. The most obvious conclusion is that pressure from the top down in ICE caused their agents to "hunt around" and look for "big arrests." When political pressure from South Korea mounted they had to reverse themselves.
It's the USA (collectively) that's in the wrong here. You can't both beg a Korean company to build and start up a battery factory in your country and not provide any mechanism for the people needed to make that happen to be present in your country.
>> Because Hyundai was not hiring 500 illegals, that is completely false.
The entire article you posted just referenced short term visas after the raid and said nothing other than the nationals who were arrested were flown home. The article spent less than a sentence with what OP posted:
The announcement came weeks after South Korea flew home more than 300 of its nationals who had been detained in a massive immigration raid at a battery factory being built on Hyundai’s sprawling auto plant campus near Savannah, Georgia.
From September when the raid happened:
"This was not an immigration operation where agents went into the premises, rounded up folks and put them on buses," Steve Schrank, the special agent in charge of Homeland Security Investigations in Atlanta, said at a news conference on Friday.
"This has been a multi-month criminal investigation where we have developed evidence, conducted interviews gathered documents and presented that evidence... in order to obtain a judicial search warrant," Schrank added.
He said it was "the largest single-site enforcement operation in the history of homeland security investigations".
"These [workers] are people that came through with Biden. They came through illegally."
Some 475 people who were in the country illegally or working unlawfully were detained in the operation, immigration officials said.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cj6xe5d6103o
>> frozen water gang
>> the current admin and the frozen water gang
Why do you have a problem using the term ICE??
those weren't undocumented workers
It seems like many people here are confusing the rights of citizens vs the rights of guests. When you are not a citizen of a country you are a guest and it is a privilege, not a right, to be in a country you are not a citizen of. Other countries have been known to ban people for political speech. There are many examples of other countries, such as the UK, doing this.
Social media is a double edge sword because what you say on it is stays forever in some archive and can have consequences. If the US government starts to use this against citizens of the US that is a different issue. But in general, if you want to enjoy to privilege of being able to travel and/or immigrate to other countries and minimize your chance of having issues, it is best to be cautious about what you post on social media and online.
Rights aren't a citizens-or-guests thing, they're a human thing. Would (for example) homicide become right or wrong depending on an entry in a database somewhere? It's absurd to suggest that it's legal to pickpocket tourists.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
Really impressive how quickly Republicans have co-signed the vaporization of civil and state rights that were once a tenant of their party's identity.
“States’ rights” was by and large an excuse for states to marginalize and oppress their minorities without interference from the Federal Government. (The Federal Government is usually the last line of defense a minority has against the state’s oppression.)
There’s a book that makes an incredibly compelling case called Freedom’s Dominion, highly recommended.
Now when I hear “states’ rights” I complete the thought with, “…to do bad things to people we don’t really like”
You might be overthinking it. Republicans support "states rights" only for red states and when they don't have control of all three branches of the federal government.
Sure… but your point could neatly support my hypothesis, so I’m not sure I understand the distinction.
Republicans don’t need to crow about states’ rights right now because they have an even bigger stick with which to oppress minorities.
It was never about state rights. It’s always been about power and control. Trump is the true face of the Republican party that’s finally come out. He’s not implementing the policies they want, but they wanted someone like him.
The ultimate goal of Christian nationalists (a large part of the Republican Party) is to turn the United States into a single-party theocracy and implement their version of Sharira law. They probably don’t fully realize this is what they’re doing.
A bit of history: "States' Rights" advocates specifically were advocating "States' rights to enforce chattel slavery". The Fugitive Slave Act is a wild usurpation of States' Rights, but the slavers (who have become the modern Repulican party) didn't mind.
"They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past."
What is the quote from?
Jean-Paul Sartre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Semite_and_Jew
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> No more flushing foreigners with our own money, when our own families need it.
But $40 billion to Argentina and whatever Israel wants
I don't think the voters asked for either of those things. It is unfortunate
They did vote for the clown who did it, though, motivated by the kind of nationalist fears that make aiding Argentina look nonsensical.
Your wives and daughters are far more likely to be raped or murdered by native born Americans than immigrants.
Usually someone they know. Well. Family, friends of family, "trustworthy" public figure. Councilors and priests remain ignored despite systematic abuse.
Both parties are globalist TBH. I used to vote Repub but got out 15 years ago, disillusioned by the unapologetic hypocrisy. Would love to see a God-fearing minarchist or libertarian succeed but I know that’s not realistic.
Wait. Aren't the libertarians pretty much for global free trade and unlimited immigration? I'm sensing some cognitive dissonance here.
nit: tenet
Try to actually listen to what Republicans are saying, and it won't be surprising anymore.
Or ignore everything they say and watch what they do.
Isn’t the problem that Trump is now doing what he promised? He campaigned on tariffs and deportations (and a decade ago, building a White House ballroom).
Do they ever make a coherent and consistent argument?
when what republicans say align with what they do, I might pay more attention to what they say. so far listening to any of these republicans talk is like listening to an abusive gaslighter on ketamine.
It’s a cult. It won’t go away until its leader does.
What are you actually saying here?
There will be a court case where some bit of evidence is going to be similar to:
Ice Agents: "Is <name> here illegally?" AI prompt: "you're absolutely right!"
Not sure why they'd bother, since we're in the "random kidnappings are the MO" territory already, regardless of the citizenship status.
This. It’s more about using AI to do facial recognition or similar things to detect individuals en masse and flag them for the gulag.
If only. If ICE arrests and deports someone without due process, there is no court case.
Why would someone who has not committed a crime and is not accused of a crime need a court case?
"Due process" isn't what you think it is. The due process for someone suspected of being an illegal immigrant is checking to see whether they are an illegal immigrant, and then sending them home. That's the only process "due".
When someone is allegedly an il_legal_ immigrant, they are present but allegedly violating immigration _laws_.
That is to say, such a person has been accused of a crime.
Due process in the constitution guarantees that individuals (including non-citizens facing deportation) have the opportunity to defend themselves in court against such accusations.
In the world we could assess this completely and with perfect accuracy, you're spot on that that'd be all that we need!
In the current world, though, due process exists because there are sometimes messy and fuzzy details that need evaluation. For instance, the date of an immigration court hearing might be delayed, or an applicant may be granted an extension. An immigrant may have received incorrect information and missed the proper steps through no fault of their own. If immigration enforcement skips due process but is working on even slightly outdated information, we're trashing the rights of people who may be following the process properly.
In the cases where an immigrant is clearly here illegally and there are no extenuating circumstances, deportation is already the thing that the current due-process does.
> Why would someone who has not committed a crime and is not accused of a crime need a court case?
Criminal court is only one type of use-case for the legal system, there are loads of other ones. The phrase "Civil court" refers to scenarios where no one has committed a crime and no one is accused of a crime, and these represent the majority of court cases.
What do you think the process to check whether someone is an illegal immigrant is? It needs to leave a paper trail, and provide someone the opportunity to prove that they're a citizen or here legally.
Maybe a court case?
That doesn't work in all cases. ESTA visa for example you give up the rights to due process if you overstay on that visa as part of the agreement to the visa.
Doesn't justify anything that ICE are currently doing though.
Ironically the same argument applies
While you are correct in stating that an article III court generally is not required, the due process for immigrants, even those not present legally, is more complicated than just "check paperwork for legal status, act immediately". While in some cases expedited removal bypass the normal process, if a deportation is contested, due process still generally entails access to a hearing before an immigration judge (article II judge).
They'd quickly cancel the contract with any supplier that doesn't give them the carte blanche and obfuscation of responsibility they want.
Just like other ML and big data LEO projects in the past, assume the use of AI is to greenlight what they already want to do and would like a fig leaf of justification for from a computer.
Don't all agencies pretty much do social media surveillance in some way?
Why is it surprising if another law enforcement agency like ICE uses it?
Agencies with checks and balances maybe. But this is extra-legal in so many ways.
>Why is it surprising if another law enforcement agency like ICE uses it?
I think the nuance is how they'll use the information: less random pick-ups (and associated crowds), versus more targetted swoops.
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It is not surprising nor particularly novel. But consider the people upvoting this are supporting a sensationalistic and dishonest Jacobin article right now. Of course it doesn't make sense.
If we organized a content storm campaign we could make this effort moot. Time to start building a portfolio of dummy accounts to muddy the water. Remember... TAILS and fresh IP's for each account, ideally nodes you can get back on with ease. Use a public network if possible.
Bonus: You can also use these accounts to undermine the Online Safety Act at the same time!
How quickly will people make fake AI accounts for real people?
Shhhhh...they're listening
Now we begin to see the true reason for all the AI push.
>You had to live – did live, from habit that became instinct – in the assumption that every sound you made was overheard, and, except in darkness, every moment scrutinized.
– George Orwell, 1984
they can see with our wifi now so that darkness part is accounted for
:(
Let the Ethernet Revolution begin!
ahah, see, my bias is confirmed.
A bias toward reality is preferred to whatever it is you are shilling.
Reality isnt ever "Heres one datapoint, trend confirmed".
Let me play a devil's advocate. Are you (and Orwell) unhappy that people breaking the law get punished? Even if you merely cross the road in the wrong place, you deserve a punishment to the maximum extent specified by the law, don't you? It doesn't matter if you break the law in the darkness or not.
> Even if you merely cross the road in the wrong place, you deserve a punishment to the maximum extent specified by the law, don't you?
It depends _why_ you did it. This is the precise reason why we have courts and juries. Jury nullification exists for a reason. Laws are not meant to be a rote set of rules and punishments to dole out mechanically.
Lord no.
No, never in human society have laws been perfectly enforceable. Laws, and society, are shaped by that fact.
The concept of perfectly, uniformly and constantly emotion every law in the books is completely absurd. We need to figure out how to deal with that.
> Let me play a devil's advocate.
No. Either stand by your opinion or don't waste our time on it.
It's this kind of Redditesque "I know what you think better than you do" rudeness that HN was meant to avoid.
.. . in the la-and of the freeee, and the ho-ome of the brave!
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"kgasser88", huh?
So?
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> $5.7 million contract for AI-driven social media surveillance
Yeah, that would just about cover the cost of a pizza party in the AI world. You also can look at "Zignal Labs". The website looks like 100% snakeoil.
I have no doubt that ICE would love to have some AI-based software to detect illegal immigrants, but I doubt it's more effective than just regular datamining.
It doesn't need to be effective, it needs to be a computerized excuse to go after more people. Whenever computers are used to target people, the output is always given far too much weight. Recently we had guns drawn on a child because a computer vision algorithm classified his doritos as a gun with a low confidence score, with explicit advice to only investigate further and not assume correctness. But that child still had multiple guns trained on them.
Take that, apply it to here, and it's clear that effectiveness would actually be counterproductive.
So far 2 million illegal immigrants have left the US. Mass surveillance and enforcement technology is dismal to think about, though NSA and google have been doing it for years. I'm watching from my perspective in the UK where there is growing fury over the gross incompetence, negligence and mishandling of a mass immigration crisis which is so stupid it beggars belief. The various law enforcement agencies in the us don't cooperate that closely, so there's less scope for this to be abused against american citizens unlike in the UK.
A perceived mass immigration crisis, which has little to do with reality and much more to do with gas bags stoking fear and spreading nonsense.
Here's reality: https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/immigration-system-...
Are the lives of immigrants better? Are we importing citizens or slaves? Why are we not interested in improving conditions in their home country? Shouldn't we focus on that first?
Thanks for that. Here's a more up to date link https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/immigration-system-....
I reject that. There is a steadily worsening crisis, even the current labour government have acknowledged that pledging to take lots of action against it, both now and during the election campaign. Specifically small boat crossings, of which more then 43,000 have already arrived this year. There is not a single politician in this country who doesn't admit that there is a serious problem.
Don’t you have a coast guard?
This is a skill issue.
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Yes, it is.
Anyone concerned about that outcome probably shouldn't have allowed their ruler to declare herself Empress of India, creating a nation with a 10-to-1 ratio of "people living on a subcontinent" vs. "people living on an island." Along with many, many other decisions made by the UK in the past 400-odd-years.
Point is, it's a bit late to complain about the "average Brit" not looking like a Viking took a Celtic bride anymore, yeah? Not after putting so much effort into being an empire that spot-welded as many different people under its flag as it possibly could for awhile?
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Personally, I do not care. I'm not in the business of telling other countries how to run their affairs, generally.
I am, however, in the business of calling out hypocrisy when a new age of isolationists ignore their own history, because that historically ends poorly.
Yes, it is fine. And even if you think otherwise, there's nothing you can do about it. So fuck off.
>there's nothing you can do about it
That is false.
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Probably the case-study of how it caused America to collapse into a civil war in the next year or so, since the only way the Executive can continue its policy is by overtly ignoring rule of law and Americans appear to be growing weary of that from their Executive.
That'll likely ice the ambitions of the ultra-nationalists in other countries historically close to America for a generation, much like Germany trying its eugenics experiment iced the previously-quite-vocal eugenicists in the US for about a generation.
you are assuming the Executive would lose that civil war.
During The last American civil war, the North was the economic poeerhouse, and the slave states were relatively poor. This no doubt impacted the outcome.
Today the blue states are the economic powerhouse, and the red states are relatively poor. Should it come to it, I would expect the wealthy states to win.
We hopefully will never find out, though.
Proponents of free society should hope the regime loses.
I'm actually not. I am assuming other countries would watch that war break out and consider how excited they are about doing that on their own soil. That kind of civil war wrecks the economy of a developed nation, and power brokers in most developed nations are a lot more interested in protecting their wealth than exclusive nationalist ideals.
Practically, I strongly suspect a US that fell to civil war in this current climate would result in the country fragmenting, not entirely unlike the premise of the old "Cyberpunk 2020" fictional setting. DC would, for example, find it remarkably challenging to hold a California that blatantly broke off from it, especially if the federal military resources of that California defected. Especially if it caught allies in neighboring states upon that occurrence.
The end result would be no real "winners;" it'd be the implosion of the United States of America as a national unit into something more approximating some agglomeration of the pieces outlined in https://www.twincities.com/2013/11/16/which-of-this-writers-....
But even if the end result were (not unlike the last American civil war) a reunification with new laws... The US lost about 2 solid years of its GDP to war. That's not good for business and would encourage those with resources to lose to expend them stifling their own domestic "purity" nationalists.
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Different populists have different ideal numbers for how many people they want to purge. Some want 10 million, some want 20-50 million going decades back and reversing whatever laws allowed the "wrong kind" of even legal immigrants to come here in the first place.
I think more governments around the world are catching on to the idea that your majority population can excuse a large amount of economic mismanagement and bad geopolitical strategy if you blame foreigners who arrived after your decline started.
If a satisfactory amount of foreigners are removed, the technology will still be there and the defense contractors will still need contracts. If there are no viable foreign adversaries at that point, then another domestic target will be needed.
Is mass immigration really a crisis? Like people are upset here in the US too but I don't even know why. There's a lot of immigrants in my state but they're not upsetting me.
> Is mass immigration really a crisis?
Not even a little bit. No one is taking jobs away from citizens or legal immigrants (locals don't want those jobs, either at all, or at the wages offered), rampant "migrant crime" is a myth created and perpetuated by the right (immigrants commit crime at lower rates than citizens), and to top it off, the American economy depends on many of these migrant workers in order to function (often in exploitative ways; explicitly allowing and supporting this type of migration would make things safer for everyone).
It's othering and racism, plain and simple.
I'm not saying we should just open the floodgates and let anyone and everyone in, and I'm not saying we shouldn't deport non-citizens who commit violent crime, but the "crisis" is entirely manufactured.
>the "crisis" is entirely manufactured.
It sure is, the US government has been underfunding the judicial body responsible for adjudicating asylum claims for years and years. As a result there are indeed people here in status limbo.
Wether or not they should be granted some kind of residency is kind of irrelevant, politicians are happy for this to be a problem they can use.
Even now, they aren’t increasing the rate of process, they’re just blowing the cash on mass surveillance.
And mass incarceration.
Employed privilege. Lots of folks would like to work in construction but haven’t been able to for a while. I know several that retired early in poverty.
I would appreciate a job in construction or at a restaurant for example. Teenagers would benefit from such jobs as well. Not available.
Your absolute assertions are myopic at best.
Who or what is stopping you from getting a job at a restaurant?
Doesn't seem to be a problem with any motivated person I know.
Last one gave me a hint, too many applicants. Most don’t bother.
And yet multiple studies have shown that when jobs are offered to Americans that involve labor (farm, construction, food industry), at those wages, then there are generally few to near zero applicants.
There are other reasonings (prevailing wage, location, etc.), but likewise, your "absolute assertion" that undocumented workers have been taking job opportunities from you is also not entirely ... absolute.
Absolutely not. They are an essential part of modern American life, and anyone against it either doesn't understand that, or does it for racist reasons.
I observe the following. ICE has not caused a huge step change in people leaving the country. If you look at the stats since Reagan (https://infographicsite.com/infographic/deportations-under-u...), it wanders up and down and is (imo) complicated.
What has changed is the “messaging” around the topic. This is very common with the Trump administration. When all is said and done, when exceptions are made/bought, and the courts and others get involved, it ends up not being much of a needle move. BUT, what is different every time is the messaging. And I have come to believe, that is what the actual goal is to some degree. The real goal is to send a message to people who are immigrants OR (and this is important) look like immigrants. It’s a message of “remember your place” and “be grateful you get to be here”. It’s the same type of tactics that gets sent to Asian communities, black communities, women, etc.
I am white. I am a male. I am 55. I oscillate between despondently sad and disgusted.
The older you are, the more likely you’ll see more people and say “get off my lawn” when really, you were busy hanging plates when the rest of the world was having babies…
That’s really what happened. The population doubled in 15 years and people moved (people always move). It’s just more people now. So naturally you’ll see more immigrants.
I'm an extreme isolationist but I see it as an extreme crisis that we have a large number of people with first generation ties to other countries.
>There's a lot of immigrants in my state but they're not upsetting me.
You might not think that, but have you ever complained about housing prices? That food at the grocery store costs more than it did a few years ago? The price of consumer goods in general?
Well, you're not buying those things. You're bidding on them. And the more people there are, here, the higher those prices will be bid upwards.
That's not how food prices works.
High housing prices is a complex mix of underbuilding due to zoning laws, companies buying up housing stock to rent, and (a few years ago) very low interest rates. One thing that is _not_ a factor is immigrants, because they are at the bottom of the social pile and usually can't get mortgages to buy houses.
> That food at the grocery store costs more than it did a few years ago?
> the more people there are, here, the higher those prices will be bid upwards
Who do you think is picking most of that food? And if the wages for those jobs went up to an American living wage, what do you think would happen to the price of food even with a bit lower demand?
I know it's all too easy and comforting to throw out knee-jerk comments cheerleading for government power, but at least try applying some basic analysis to what you write.
Not only is it not a crisis but many nations NEED immigration because their natality rates are so low. Including the UK.
It was. Not since Trump took office. It's still a crisis in Europe though.
The answer is painfully obvious - rascism - the closeted Nazis are out in the open.
Although one must remember, they want to express their white supremacy but simultaneously not be called Nazis.
Roughly half the population responds to unfamiliar people and ideas with curiosity, and the other half with fear. The latter half are easily manipulated into nurturing the fear. Everything rolls up to this.
What's your definition of "unfamiliar"? I just want people vetted before they're allowed into my house to live along-side my family? Is that unreasonable?
> have left the US
They did not "leave" the US, they were deported without due process.
> though NSA and google have been doing it for years
That does not make it less dismal
> less scope for this to be abused against american citizens unlike in the UK
There are agencies in the US that do as they please without needing to cooperate with anyone. Not sure how you arrived in that conclusion.
> So far 2 million illegal immigrants have left the US.
Why would anyone believe this? It's such a strange thing to say, and one would have to be an absolute fool to believe it.
The people I work with believe the government, the current administration is funding immigrants. Providing them with handlers who are paid to assist them, open up credit cards in their own names on behalf of non-citizens who otherwise couldn't.
Multiple of them believe this. One mentioned it, after she left I turned to my other coworker to say "that was some crazy stuff she was saying" only to be met with, "Hey, it's happening. A lot of federal money goes missing and this is exactly where it's going."
It's a complete disconnect from reality that's malleable to any form desired.
When ICE raided Tyson Chicken (a few years ago), multiple workers provided documentation from Tyson telling them how to stay under the radar and how to fill out paperwork if they were undocumented. There's definitely a very large effort in undocumented labor... and little interest in rocking the boat of those employers.
> So far 2 million illegal immigrants have left the US.
According to the current administration, who have a ... not exactly sterling ... reputation for accuracy and honesty in reporting.
> So far 2 million illegal immigrants have left the US.
The Trump administration loves gaudy numbers like this. Common sense tells you that's a lot of movement in too short of time. Until they release evidence of these numbers, please do not spread this misinformation.
Indeed, it's a complete lie and fabrication, and those who repeat it are bearing false witness. Take the report it came from, click on any "supporting" link, such as:
> A recent study from the United Nations reported that President Trump’s immigration policies led to a 97% reduction in illegal aliens heading northbound to the U.S. from Central America.
And you find that the document they link does not support their assertion, and in face the "97%" refers to:
> The migrants who returned during the period were primarily Venezuelan nationals, accounting for 97% of the documented southward flow, with most heading to neighboring Colombia.
It's comically bad deception, only people who continuously traffic in lies all day long would even publish something like this.
Is it really that much movement though?
Like, say we assume it's true: There are 340 million people in the US. That's less than 1% of the current population leaving. I really doubt anybody would notice much of a difference.
Hell would be a USA without immigrants. I wouldn’t want to live in a country full of salt of the earth Tennessee farmers.
> full of salt of the earth Tennessee farmers.
Is there something wrong with them?
The United States is a nation of immigrants ... hopefully someday soon we'll remember that it is acutally our biggest strength, not a weakness.
A nation of legal or illegal immigrants? Should any us have a say in which we prefer?
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Only among consumers of conservative media, and they're not a majority of the US population.
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Ad hominem does not strengthen your argument.
It's more affluent than most other states. Most red states take more federal money than they give back. Maybe you should actually look at numbers rather than relying on memes and narratives.
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TBH that sounds amazing.